This was a letter my wife and I gave Jim Brown privately on 1/18/2015 after Sunday morning service. This letter was a letter of rebuke about him gossiping about believers to other believers. We gave him a letter, because if anyone knows Jim, then they would know that Jim does not hear a matter first then talk, he talks and never hears the matter. We had no choice but to write it down and let him read it privately. This behavior had been going on for years, even before we moved there in 2007. We could never understand why there was so much discord among the brethren until God used a member of the church, Lisa, to expose that the problem was coming from the head. Many have gone through what we went through, but here is our letter to him.
Jim
(Just a note, everything in blue letters was inserted afterwards)
I am writing this with great grief and sadness of heart. These past few months have been very heavy on Mary Ann and I. We don’t know what to say or think anymore. This is the biggest trial of our lives. Writing this is bothering the pit of my stomach, but after much prayer and thought, Mary Ann and I have been deciding as to whether we should stay or leave G&T ministries. We love (“agape” and “phileo”) everyone here, but we have overstayed our welcome. When people start talking about you negatively while they are still part of the ministry and it gets to their ears, it is a hurtful thing and a sign that it is time to leave and move on. The reason I am writing this, is for the same reason you cannot come to me face to face, one on one as per Matt 18:15-17 (Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican), and this is sad to me. You have come to me in the past, why not now? If you have something to say to me, say it to me, but please don’t go around gossiping about us or anyone else for that matter (Lev 19:16 – Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people…). Gossip is gossip, no matter how you slice it. You have studied on gossip but so have I. This is one of the major problems here that I have witnessed through the years and I am no exception, but I have learned and still learning not to do that. No one here knows or wants to go to each other and talk when problems arise with each other. The best thing for them to do is just simply gossip about it, because it is part of our nature. And it all starts with the one who is supposed to set the example for us. To come to think of it, you have been doing it for a long time, we just had respect of persons for you. I expect to hear gossip about us from baby sheep and undeveloped immature believers, I can take that and accept it, but to hear that it is coming from you, it is discouraging and disheartening. All roads lead to Rome, Jim, it leads to you. And I know you are going to want me to come to you (just like you say about Jason, Phil & Velma Johnson from Ohio, etc…you want everyone to come to you), but I didn’t have a problem with you for me to come to you to begin with. And why would I come to you when it is common knowledge among the sheep that you will not listen to me nor anyone for that matter, or should I say, you take over the conversation, it is no longer a dialogue, but a one sided conversation, it is just the way you are Jim, and we have learned to accept it. It is part of your outer-man. I can see why some say, “you can’t go to Jim, he won’t listen”. I agree with them to an extent. It has nothing to do with doctrinal issues but how you are with everyone. You have the tendency of always jumping the gun and not letting others speak, you cut them off before they finish their sentence and hence you pre-judge the matter (Pr 18:13 – He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him). And that is why I am writing this, so that you can read the matter before judging it, you have given us no other choice. And this has nothing to do with me admonishing you over false doctrine, but about gossip (which is a doctrine, but), about you feeding sheep private information about other sheep (whether it is a personal matter about them or an opinion about them – Pr 11:13 – A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter), on who is “selective and controlling” among other things being said. Sounds familiar? We love this truth Jim and that is the only reason why we moved here. It has changed our lives for the better, but we cannot stay where the Pastor, is knocking and stabbing us behind our backs. This breaks our hearts.
Let me rewind this so that you may see the full picture. First off, this is not a Mike issue nor a Lisa issue, but this was where the pieces of the puzzle were coming together. Do you honestly think that God would not reveal things to us or others (and I‘m not talking about understanding scripture either) about sin. Sooner or later God exposes what is done in darkness (Lk 12:2 – For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known)? He has always shown us things we did not want to know, why? I don’t know. How did you get to know about Greg and Janna? How did you get to know about the situation in New York, Ecuador (Steve and Scott = baptism), Facebook, Lawrence, Kevin Saitta, Sean Farmer, Bert Martin, etc…? Who put that together for you to see it? Who stepped up to the plate for G&T ministries? Greg Noble (me) took all the punches, slaps and insults for G&T ministries and you were ok with it. Who stepped up to the plate with the G&T Facebook page when you could not monitor it? I took all the kicks and slaps there and you were ok with it. You knew every detail, we hid nothing from you. We didn’t want to know this stuff, but God wanted us to know. Who defended this church more than anyone here? This is not a boast, I speak as a fool, these are facts. On another note, How did you get to know about the Bibles and books needed in Ecuador? How did you get to know about the vehicle needed in Ecuador? You were going to send them less than what they really needed, but found out that they needed a good lasting vehicle and that vehicles there were expensive. I was looking out for others, for my brothers and sisters, not for self? We defended this ministry and bent backwards for you and the ministry? “We have been faithful to this ministry”, and this quote came out of your mouth. You say you appreciate me, but not my wife? Who stepped up to the plate when you needed the tracts done, your typed studies, the video uploads to the website, the Miata that needed to be sold, etc…? But it is not ok for some believers to fellowship with us? To “stay away” from us or “back off” from us? This is juvenile. It’s not even biblical (Heb 10:25 – Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching). Why are you doing this? We don’t understand.
We don’t “hate” or “don’t like” Mike nor do we “NOT understand him” as you say. Actually, the only person that we went to bat for (on many occasions) more than anyone else in this ministry, was for Mike (and Mike does not know this), but this is for your information, not that you really care. The minute anyone mentions the name of Mike, you switch to defense mode, whether you see it or not, it is what it is. We don’t need to tell you nor anyone who we defend or help in truth (Mt 6:1-4 –Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly). That is between us and God. As long as God is our witness, that is all that really matters. We are not mad at Lisa either. Prior to her moving here and when she moved here, Mike asked us several times if we would be available to fellowship with him and Lisa, and we said, “yes, just let us know when”, but never a reply to that. We asked Mike several times to let’s make a date for us to fellowship together. No reply after that either. Finally Lisa and Mary Ann had a time to get together for fellowship, not knowing that Mike and Lisa were not dating anymore. This led to Mary Ann asking, “how come we four never got together for fellowship?” Lisa being honest (or as you say about her, “naive”, “she can’t think for herself”) said, “I never thought I would be fellowshipping with you nor did I want to, because of the things I was told by Mike, mainly that you and Willie were “controlling and selective” (1st witness) and we weren’t the only ones she stayed away from Jim, because of what was being “put in her head” by Mike (so who was feeding Mike or “putting things in his head?”). Meanwhile, while he is saying we are “selective and controlling” to her and other sheep, he is the one displaying these actions by being selective and controlling who Lisa should be talking to and who to fellowship with, which I believe by definition that is what selective and controlling means. You don’t think we see what is happening? We are not stupid Jim. But now we can see (eido) that it wasn’t all Mike’s fault, he was only repeating what you have been saying about us and others, like “we’re selective”, “Joel has got issues”, “Dave has issues”, “Tom has a short fuse”, etc…Mike is accountable, but so are you (Lk 12:48 –…For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more). So this is what we are feeding the baby sheep, besides what you preach in the pulpit? And then you tell Lisa we are “selective” (2nd witness). Mike said it to Lisa about us and you said it to Lisa about us. Not on the same day, but on separate occasions. That is the 2nd witness. That is not a coincidence. Now you are labeling us? If this was not said negatively about us, then why did you not continue your sentence when Lisa interrupted you by mentioning that she was fellowshipping with us on Saturday night’s together with those on ooVoo? I don’t believe she was lying nor said it to spite you. Just like the stuff she said about Ohio (Phil & Velma Johnson, which Mike called the cops on with your approval), she didn’t say those things to spite them either, she was just being honest (or “naive” because “she can’t think for herself”). She said it because she did not understand why you would say that about us and say things about other believers that are still part of the ministry and not be neutral amongst the sheep as a shepherd should be. Mike told her to stay away from Mary (your wife) and us (and other believers). And I wondered why no one wants to be around us, talk to us or fellowship with us especially on Friday night’s. Remember me mentioning this to you, but you stayed quiet? Let me just insert this here; there are two things you cannot blame my wife for and that is for Lisa and Mike not dating anymore and for Lisa choosing to get an apartment on her own (which you did not want her doing, you wanted her to get a condo), this happened way before Lisa and Mary Ann started fellowshipping. For a person who can’t think for herself, she did pretty well, all on her own. Don’t you think?
If you don’t want other believers around us, then why not just call us down for our sin, if it is sin and tell us to leave? It would make life so much easier on all of us. We would be more than willing to leave, than to keep making you feel uncomfortable with us being around. I knew Mary Ann and I had enemies in the church, I just didn’t expect in a million years, you being one of them. It is hard for me to even say the word “enemy” but that is what gossip does (you know it and I know it), it creates enemies among brothers (Pr 17:9 – He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends). Now all that has changed, and that is very heart breaking and sorrowful. And I know that all of this is the will of God, it is ordained, however, so is the admonishing, the repentance and the forgiveness. I hope you take heed and do what is right Jim (Lk 17:3 – Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. Lev 19:17 – Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him).
A couple of months ago Mike emailed me correcting Mary Ann and I for inviting out of town people over our home for fellowship and for the food we eat. I have copied and pasted the email here
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Willie,
I would like to know something about what you’re thinking and what you think you’re doing regarding fellowship with people from out of town. I would have said something a couple years back, but wasn’t in right frame of mind at the time, the time Patricia Donaldson came in the same time as John Neurohr. It keeps happening.
By your actions you’re taking it on yourself to presumptuously decide that I do not need fellowship with people from out of town and they don’t need fellowship with me; it’s not your decision to make and it’s causing problems for other people.
I know you can only have so many people over. So when people come in from out of town, there are alternatives available, the church building for example. There are other options too and if the food isn’t to your standards you can eat before hand and everyone gets to fellowship.
I’m not angry, but I have to say something.
Mike
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Hi Miguel. As far as the fellowship on Saturday nights is concerned, I am only trying to give out of town people fellowship due to the NY incident and Jim is aware of it and he approves it. I am not doing this on my own, I would not go behind the ministry’s back and try to cause division. Mike, I have never said that you don’t need fellowship, because i do not believe that. I believe we all need fellowship to grow. Listen, if you wanna invite people over to the church when they come out of town, that is fine with me. I don’t have a problem with that. But if i invite people over my house to eat and have fellowship, that is no one’s business and that is not said as a put down. When others gather together and we are not invited you don’t see us getting bent out of shape over it, that is none of my business. And when we come to fellowship on Friday nights, we do eat before we come and it is not that the food is not to our standards, i just that our diet is different. There is no sin in eating different foods and I am not gonna knock any one for eating what they want to eat. It is not right to knock what others eat or do. If i have caused you any grief or pain, I deeply apologize, it is not my intention to cause any one to stumble, especially you bruder Miguel.
Agape n phileo
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I have to tell you that I don’t see your actions matching up with your words.
Pastor told me to say something the time Patricia and John were in town. I didn’t because I didn’t have the right words. So I asked him about it and he told me again to say something and that he would say something. So you should communicate with him.
Mike
got predestination (prohorizo in NT Greek)? www.graceandtruth.net
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Mike. Biblically what actions dont match with what i said? Listen, whatever you heard is what you heard from another. Have i ever said to you face to face that you dont need fellowship? If I hear someone say something that you said, should I keep listening to others or should I just go to you? Jesus said if you have ought against thy brother or if your brother trespass against you, then go to him between thee and him alone. Did you ask me face to face? So if you are hearing from another, isn’t it their duty to come to me 1st or to gossip about it? Did you ask me what I said? And 2 yrs later? Why all of a sudden now? Mary Ann & I asked you and Lisa to hang out with us, did you ever respond? You guys hung out/fellowshiped with others and should i be upset at that? C’mon Mike, what is the real issue? Please Mike if you want to rebuke me, then rebuke me for sin, not for this. Besides you are hearing second hand. You never asked me. You should have asked what it was that I said instead of harboring it. Harboring is not good for any of us. It just builds up and then we blow up.
Mike, I am not mad at you, so please in the future just ask me 1st.
Is he getting this from you too? I know you had a fit here on Thursday (1/8/15 – the same day you lashed out on Lisa) over people choosing not going to doctors as opposed to those that do. Listen, we have never solicited nor forced our diet on anyone, just like we don’t solicit about Colonics, and we have never said that people should not go to doctors. You’re the one saying it, not us. I don’t believe in shoving my diet nor my beliefs about doctors nor my beliefs about the Bible for that matter down people’s throat. You don’t like it? Get over it. There is no sin in our decision (or “preference”) of what we want to eat and whether we want to go to a doctor or not. It is our decision, not yours. I respect your decision, you should respect the decision of others (Rom 14:2-4 – For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand). Is it the position of a ‘pastor’ to control the decisions of each person in their daily life? As far as you and Mary are concerned, word of advice, if people give you advice, don’t knock them and put them down, they are only reaching out to you and Mary out of concern for the both of you, we all love you. If you don’t agree with what they say, all you have to do is tell them “privately” and express your gratitude for their concern, and explain to them why you “prefer” doctors and medication. Lord willing they will understand and respect your decision. But to say, “what, do they know more than my doctor?”, you are belittling them and knocking them. That is hurtful to the baby sheep. So, are you a doctor when you say that Mike has Asperger’s syndrome? Or did you get a doctor’s diagnosis [I inserted this afterwards with our meeting with Jim – Jim was taking Mike to see a doctor this month, but he was mentioning about Mike having this disease way before the diagnosis]? Show some compassion Jim. All they are trying to do is help the ones they love. There is no sin in trying to help. People don’t know your medical history, nor Mary’s, but at least they are trying to reach out to you. You say that you are compassionate and gentle to the sheep, and that we should do the same, but there are times where you just don’t show it, even on the videos. How can we do what you say when you are confusing us (Matt 23:3 – All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not)? And I know that is part of your old you (the outer-man) that still dwells in you, you are still human (thank God), but as our Pastor and leader, you really need to try to examine what you say to other sheep.
Everyone is selective to an extent. It takes a selective person to know one. When you have over your house Dave, Mike, Sheldon, etc… to watch a game, boxing, UFC or whatever it may be, you never invited me nor other men in the church, not that I would want to watch that, but the point is, that is being selective by definition. And if all the people don’t fit in your home, then invite all the men to the church. Sounds familiar? I remember when we first moved here, you said that you and Mary don’t hang out with everyone, only a select few. I may not be quoting it verbatim, but that was the gist of it. It is none of my business who you (nor any other) invite to their home as a social gathering, or to lunch or dinner. That is totally your business; however it is none of your business nor anyone else’s business who we invite over our home, that is totally our decision, not yours. So please don’t say we are selective (or whatever term you used) when you are just as guilty (Matt 7:1 – Judge not, that ye be not judged). We stayed quiet when Mike said it, because I expect that from Mike and from other sheep, but now we have to hear that you said it too? That is hurtful. Now we know (eido) where Mike gets it from. We have nothing against Mike, you are at fault. (Pr 6:16-19 – These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.)
And controlling? How are we controlling? When have we ever been controlling? I’ve heard you say many times on separate occasions, “I can control Mike”, “I can control Vic”, “I can control Dave” and when you said the Dave part, you kind of realized what you said, and rephrased it, and changed your mind about the word “control”. Watch what you say to others Jim, you never know when it will come back to bite you. You have never heard me say that I can control, or I do control any one, the reason being is mainly because I do not believe that any one should control anyone. I can’t even control my own life and I am going to control other sheep? That is God’s job, not ours. Is admonishing a brother or sister controlling? Because that is the only thing I can see that would come close to controlling by definition. If I am wrong for this, then I guess I am guilty, at least it is better than gossiping about it. If we are controlling and selective, then why not correct us about it biblically like Jesus said in Matt 18:15-17, instead of talking about us privately to young believers and causing them to be biased against us? That is not biblical. It is false doctrine to cause brethren to separate from each other. Knowingly or unknowingly you are causing them to think in their minds that they should stay away from us. Baby sheep cannot understand why you say things in the pulpit and contradict it away from the pulpit (Rom 2:21 – Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself?…). I am not saying you do this all the time, but when you do, it makes us wonder. Do you hate us that much Jim? Because the opposite of agape (and this is what you have taught us) is hate and vice versa (I Jn 4:20 – If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?). If you can’t agape us one on one, then you obviously hate us. I just can’t process it in my mind how you can have a straight face with me when coming over for Colonics on Monday’s and Thursday’s, while chattering behind our backs. Isn’t it our job towards each other as believers to agape one another when we are in sin if it is sin? And even if it isn’t sin, we should still be able to go to one another and talk. Isn’t this what you have been teaching us? And isn’t this what we are trying to do? Please be careful with what you say and who you say it to Jim. We need to keep our opinions about how we feel about each other to ourselves. It is like the old proverb goes, “if you don’t have anything good to say about someone, then don’t say anything at all”. Knowingly or unknowingly, intentionally or unintentionally, you are causing sheep to be biased against each other and fight against each other, not just against us, but against each other. It is not right to put baby sheep on the spot with private things that they don’t need to hear nor know, you are endangering them and causing them to stumble in their walk (Lk 17:1 –…It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!). If a sheep goes to you for advice or about personal problems, you need to keep that to yourself, not repeat it to other sheep, that is personal and confidential. That will cause us to be biased against each other. It is none of our business what others come to you about. But that might change, if others find out what you are saying about them. Whether you do it knowingly or unknowingly, it is still wrong to put us through that. It is hard enough as it is to put Mary through that, but I guess that is part of the package of being a Pastor’s wife, but to put us through it, it is wrong. What do you expect the baby and immature believers to think and feel when you load them with this unnecessary information? We reap what we sow Jim. How can believers be kind to one another, agape and “phileo” one another and be “friends” with one another, “not” cut off fellowship with one another (without admonishing them first) if the Pastor is saying things like “watch out for this believer” and “this believer has this problem” and “this believer has that problem”? You may not be saying it that way, but in essence that is how baby sheep will perceive it. Baby sheep don’t know what to do but be biased against those you speak about. Mike Lyda is not conforming to the image of Christ, he is conforming to your image of how you perceive everyone. What you whisper in his ear about others is what he tells others about us, about Joel, Tom, Dave, Keith, etc…(Pr 16:28 – …a whisperer separateth chief friends) It is just natural that he is only going to do what you do, not what you preach from the pulpit. Children will only do what their parents do, not what they say and that is just a fact.
We thank God for opening the door and for allowing us to move here and sit under you and learn from your teachings, for that we are grateful, but now it is time to go unless you change. You can say that you have studied for 50 plus years and that no one is going to tell you how to run the ministry, and that no one represents this ministry but you, but it is ok for everyone to invest in it (in tithes and offerings), just not represent the ministry, right? Are you afraid you might lose that coming in from us and others? If anyone calls us and asks us why we are no part of G&T (after we come to you with the 2nd and 3rd witness and the church as per Mt 18) and what happened, don’t be surprised of the outcome. There are repercussions for gossip. I’m not threatening you Jim, I’m just saying that is what always happen when people leave. I am not bitter, nor angry, just grieving and hurt (Pr 18:8 – The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly). Everyone knows how you are Jim, just like you know how all of us are. The shepherd is supposed to know his sheep, and vice versa. It is just like the parents know their kids and vice versa. Like the wife knows her spouse and vice versa. It is no secret to all of the believers, that you speak about others here in the ministry (you’ve mentioned many things to me that I should not know, why not to others? at least you are consistent), and that you don’t let others get a word in edgewise when they want to speak to you (many have experienced this). One thing has stood out throughout the years with me that you have said, “if people are treating you wrong, they are not just doing it to you, they are doing it to everyone”. If you are gossiping about us, you are gossiping about everyone. Just because you are the Pastor, that does not mean that you are exempt from gossip.
The only thing that would rectify this, is like you have said about others that have sinned against you in the past (Bob Miner, The Yates, etc…)… go to everyone that you have said things to about us (and about others) and tell them you were wrong for the things you said about us and others, either individually or from the pulpit. That is called repentance, and bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. You and Mike have to fix this, for your own sake. We don’t want to stay here if you don’t change. It is what it is. The damage is done. Honestly I don’t think you will repent, because I just don’t see you admitting that you are wrong. Please prove me wrong. I would love for God to prove me wrong, which he has done many times, but it is what it is.
Is this another problem arising in the church, because of us leaving (after the 2nd and 3rd witness and the church as per Mt 18)? It all depends on you Jim. We are not pulling anyone away from this ministry, that is not right. We will however not lie about what has happened if we are asked, and we are not going to tell them to leave the church either, that is totally up to them. This is your foundation. I am not going to build upon another man’s foundation, IF and when that happens (Rom 15:20 – Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation). Our intention is not to hinder the ministry, but you might hinder it by not repenting. G&T has been there for us and it has to continue to be there for the other sheep. No one after you can fix the gossip and the fighting in the church that you have caused, but you (Pr 26:20 – Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth). You brought this problem all on your own. It has been going on for a long time.
So what happens now? Are you going to tell all the believers to stay away from us too? That we are spreading false doctrine? Or false accusations? Are we the enemy? It all depends on you Jim. We are not leaving this truth. You said it yourself, “just because people leave, doesn’t mean they are not believers”. Regardless of what you believe about us Jim, we are not leaving nor diminishing from what we have learned here. It is a blessing to have learned under you. We have learned a lot from you. It has been a great bumpy ride and we wouldn’t want it any other way. It is the fire that conforms. If we have to leave, because of no repentance, we have no intentions of contacting others that have grudges with the church, if that is your concern. We are not “taking a break”. They left because they wanted to leave and for doctrinal issues. If they get ear that we have left, even though we have no intentions of leaving, we are not going to entertain them, it is none of their business. We didn’t do it then, nor will we do it now. They don’t agree with this truth. They don’t believe what we believe and I want nothing to do with them. Enclosed is a check for the remainder of your Colonics. I’d rather not see you here nor attend fellowship till we hear from you with an apology. [I inserted this afterwards – We heard from Jim, but not with an apology. He wanted to meet at the church on 1/20 with Him, Mary, Mike, Lisa, Mary Ann & I – but we didn’t ask for a meeting. Matt 18:15-17, says one on one. I did my part by going to him, one on one. He did not believe he needed to apologize and this was recorded] Mary Ann and I will not be there till this is all taken care of, if and when that happens. As I said before, you and Mike need to contact everyone that you have gossiped to and restore us and others. If I do not hear from you within a week, I can assume that you are not hearing us. Expect me with the 2nd and 3rd witness with this letter [inserted this afterwards – he had many witnesses there, Mary, Mike & Lisa, but no one there was neutral. Mary Ann and I felt as if we were being set up – it was video taped). If you do not let me speak, we will leave. I will go to the church and I’d rather not go this route. This is what the bible says to do. It is scripture. It makes me sick to even think about going this far. Please do not let it go this far Jim. If you do not want to do any of this and just want to tell us to just leave, we are ok with that too. What happens here, stays here (I Co 5:12 – For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?). Will it be harder to find fellowship, if we leave? Yes, but that is the price we have to pay for leaving. And it is the price you have to pay for causing sheep to stumble. The ball is in your court. Selah.
[I added this after the meeting just for all of you to read – you will hear many things being said about us, some of it will be true and some of it “gossip”, and he might teach on it from the pulpit and make an example out of us, but this too is the will of God. Even if what he had said about us and about others was a “misunderstanding” or it was “misunderstood”, the fact remains, that something or things were still said privately about us and about others not just now but in the 7½ years we’ve been here. We have been taught while living here that even if you are NOT wrong, you should still apologize for a misunderstanding, and I have done that many times because Jim told me to do it. Why can’t he do the same for his sheep? Just pray that God will give all of us wisdom and courage to go through this trial, that is if you still consider us your brother and sister. We won’t take it personal with whatever decision you make. I’m not asking you to side with us, just judge righteous judgment. Be on God’s side.]
After listening to Jim this Sunday morning 1/25/15, this is our reply: according to this letter, we have never said we were “going somewhere else”. He said that, not us. Are you comfortable with Jim saying that we are “going somewhere else” when we never said that? So where did we go if we went somewhere else? We have never left this truth, nor will we ever leave this truth. How can anyone being so many years with this ministry, all of a sudden get up and leave, and not say good-bye to any of you? And none of you question that? You don’t KNOW us by now? It is obvious that Jim never knew us, otherwise, why would he have Fred lock the doors of the church when Jim was about to mention us “going somewhere else”? C’mon guys, we are not Ellie Cooper. We are not Lawrence Foster, Kevin Saitta, Sean Farmer, Bert Cooper, etc… Are we to be compared to these folks? What does “going somewhere else” mean? What did you think “going somewhere else” meant when he said that? Did you all think “going to some other church”? Or did you think he said “stay away from us” since we are no longer part of G&T? Because that is what we were conditioned to think and do. If we are no longer part of G&T, then we are not believing this truth, right? I don’t blame you for thinking this way, I would have done the same thing, but the point of this letter/rebuke was that he could see how his unclarified words can lead sheep to think something else and the sheep go gossip about it to others, which is exactly what he just did.
What Jim said is still not an apology and he did not own up to his sin of gossip. If we have been 2 of his “dearest friends” as he said, and if he “loves” us as he said, wouldn’t he want to fix and mend things? Is that being “broken hearted” as he said and being a “friend” as he said? We gave him the letter in an envelope and on the envelope was written, “private and confidential”. Why didn’t he approach me one on one? Yet he made it a point to call sheep this whole week (1/18-1/24) and babble about us and imply to them to stay away from us. How do we know this? Because those that KNOW us questioned it and the rest of the sheep just took his word for it, because he is the pastor. No one is “supposed” to QUESTION “the pastor”, right? If we are not believing nor walking in this truth then why would Jim say “our best wishes are with them”? He never gave best wishes to those that preached false doctrine and gave the church a hard time. As brothers and sisters in this truth, shame on you. Don’t you know that whenever someone leaves G&T, or doesn’t come for awhile, that their dirty laundry is spread like wild fire by Jim and Mary. The Jared’s, Jason’s, Troy’s, etc… Jim makes it extremely difficult for anyone to come back. If and when this happens to you, will you just brush it off, and say “it is just gossip”? Will you do like the Corinthians in I Co 5, and say, “it is just fornication”? Doesn’t anyone want to stand for truth, or you just want to play church? The church is complacent and in apathy. We will have to live with our decision, but you will have to live with your decision too. We are all accountable to God. You cannot keep saying “he is just a man”. We are just sheep. He needs to set the example. We should not give him a pass for his behavior.
Conclusion: Jim taught last nite (2/1/15) about Gossip and said that testimonials is not gossip, but he forgot to mention the private things he spoke about. That is not testimonials. I never mentioned the word testimonials, he did. Remember the nite of the meeting? On that same day, during the day time, he deposited the check for the Colonics that we owed him. Banks are not open in the evening. So he already knew what his decision was beforehand, plus he told everyone that was in the meeting that the reason he recorded it was to show how he disciplines those in the church. He had no intention of talking it out but of rebuking me. He has told others that the reason he is not repenting is because he feels that I am trying to take over the ministry and he told others (some elders) that he feels threatened by anyone that knows scripture and knows how to study and think for myself, and that is why he cut off the oovoo, Ecuador and others from fellowshipping with us. I am sad and sorry that he feels that way about me, and for that reason we are not coming back ever to G&T. I am done. You are ok if you don’t live here to go through this. We did this not just for ourselves, but for our fellow brethren. And this is the price we must pay for confronting the Pastor.